In conversation with dimitria.eth
15.05.2023
“A graffiti is created in context with the plasticity of the city.”
I was once a resident of Zurich and can attest to the enriching experience when I would come across Harald Naegeli's captivating graffiti creations adorning the city's walls. Known as the “Sprayer of Zurich”, Harald Naegeli’s sprayings, spanning almost five decades transcend the boundaries of street art, embodying a unique blend of rebellion, poetry, and social commentary. His distinctive style will always be an emblematic representation of the city's urban landscape, surrounded by heated debate, conversations, and provoking thoughts.The artist generously agreed to meet in person on a sunny afternoon at his studio and talked about his art and life, as captured in our conversation below.
Dimitria: Which artists shaped your work the most?
HN: I had a lot of inspirations, especially for the early graffiti figures (as later attributed by the police force “Fantasiefiguren” in English “Fantasy Figures”) from Kurt Schwitters and Hans Arp, as well as Matisse’s cut-out collages and flower compositions, the avant garde, and the Dada movement which was rooted in Zurich. My teacher (Karl Schmid) was the dedicated woodcutter of Hans Arp and of course, as a young student I gathered my first memories there, collecting the newest unsigned woodcut plates and brought them to him. Hans Arp was also a great poet.
Sambal Oelek’s comic book “Harald Naegeli. Der Sprayer von Zürich.”, portraying the story and aspects of Hans Arp’s woodcut as created by Karl Schmid and the Dadaism movement which inspired Harald Naegeli’s art and contributed to his sprayings.
D: I didn’t know that about Arp.
HN: You didn’t know that? I will tell you a poem by Arp (“Der poussierte Gast, 4. Symmetrisch kommen wir ans Licht”, form "Der Pyramidenrock”, published in 1924)
[Harald Naegeli started vibrantly narrating]:
Symmetrisch kommen wir ans Licht.
Vielgliedrig turnen wir darin
en Kopf bekränzt mit Schnurr- und Bart.
Wir sind er ist du bist ich bin.
Das erstemal ins Kellerloch.
Wer kein Geländer hat fällt rein.
Das zweitemal zum zweitenmal
wozu wir plus und minus Schrein.
Das Promenadenjahr vergeht
mit dem geschälten Mond im Schlag.
Leer fällt der Hammer von dem Stiel.
Dann kommt die Flasche an den Tag.
Dann strecken wir die Zungen raus
und schlafen wieder aus und ein
mit vielen Stimmen kunterbunt
vielfrüh wie Wolken unterm Stein
Both Kurt Schwitters and Hans Arp were active members of the Cabaret Voltaire (in Zurich).
GIF: Harald Naegeli “Fantasiefigur”. Images by Jurg Tödtli (1977), Felix T. (1978), Dani Corti (1979), and Margrit Etter (1978).
D: Did you make any preparatory drawings on paper before you spray?
HN: No, no, never. It was all in the hand, the eyes and the heart. Each movement went lightning fast.
D: I noticed that you have previously used colours in your graffitis, but the majority is in black. Is there a reason for opting or not for colourful lines?
HN: I am not a colourful person, it happened that the first graffiti works I made were in colour, but I quickly changed that. Black works better against the wall. The contrast is stronger and it doesn’t fade with time.
D: Why did you not sign your graffitis?
HN: Do the other sprayers sign their works?
D: Yes, the majority now do.
HN: I do not have to sign my work, they all know it is done by me.
D: Was anonymity an important aspect for your work before you went to prison and your identity made public? What has changed for you?
HN: Anonymity was always important for me and a protection shield. I felt the best when I was anonymous. Unfortunately, I am not anonymous anymore.
“In the studio the artist can only have a dialogue with himself, but on the street the dialogue extends to society.”
Tübigen, around 1984. Courtesy SRF (link here)
One artistic friendship which flourished during that time of exile between Harald Naegeli was with Joseph Beyus, as they exchanged letters and postcards, which can also be seen at the Beuys Archive in Schloss Moyland.
Harald Naegeli with Joseph Beuys at the crossing point in Lörrach (1984), CH Medien
D: In the early 1980s, and during your public and imminent arrest in Zurich, you received support from many artists, and I believe there is also a video of the young Bice Curiger in front of one of your artworks in Zurich. What was it like to be supported by the art community? Was there also a relationship with Joseph Beuys, who often spoke about you and even wrote a letter to the Human Rights Commission in Strasbourg to defend you?
HN: It was a media play, there was no relationship. It runs by itself. People come and go and disappear. They are once present and then not more. Similarly with the clouds, they come and go.
“He was in the right place, at the right time and did the right thing. That is art."
—Joseph Beuys about Harald Naegeli (1984)
*Bice Curiger at the “Das Monatsmagazin” aired on 17.05.1979, courtesy of SRF (link here)
From Swiss German to German text:
“Ich finde, wir sollten illegale Aspekte von diesen Zeichnungen nicht dramatisieren und nicht überbewerten. Dafür erheben sie keinen Ewigkeitsanspruch, im Gegensatz zu vielen anderen Kunstwerken im öffentlichen Raum, wo wenn wir sie besichtigen möchten, sind sicher sehr viel mehr Kosten und Umtreiben verbunden als die Reinigung von einer solchen Wand. Was zählt, ist immer die künstlerische Qualität. Für mich zählt das da genau wie im Museum oder in der Galerie, und was sind das für Merkmale? Es ist eine sehr lockere Zeichnungen, ein sehr prägnanten Ausdruck von etwas auf eine sehr witzige Art mit grosser Sparsamkeit, Komplexität, viel Schichtigkeit von Bezügen.” —Bice Curiger
English Translation:
“I think we shouldn't dramatise or overestimate the illegal aspects of these drawings. They don't claim eternity, unlike many other artworks in public spaces where visiting them would surely involve much higher costs and effort than cleaning a wall like this. What matters is always the artistic quality. For me, it holds the same value as art in a museum or gallery, and what are the characteristics? It's a very loose drawing, a very concise expression of something in a humorous way, with great economy, complexity, and layers of references.” —Bice Curiger
*Bice Curiger is a Swiss art historian, curator, critic and publisher,
who has been the Artistic Director of the Fondation Vincent Van Gogh Arles.
“I remember very well, when I created my first spraying there were groups of people around it discussing,
today this is not possible.”
D: Speaking of clouds, nature has played an important role in your work. Tell me more about it.
HN: Clouds are a pivotal and central point in my life. Coming and going - the relationship of rain, lightning and thunder. These elements bring the origins of being here and present. When I moved to Dusseldorf, I made the “Blitzfiguren” (En: lightnight figures) - which are very nice, some are based on abstractions, some on experiences in nature, which evolve in this lightning and simple, minimal form.
Harald Naegeli, Blitzfigur in Dusseldorf, Kaimauer Hafen (early 1980s), image by Shoshone
HN: When one wants to understand me they have to look at my sketch book [-shows a few sketchbooks with portraits]. These are my most personal works, as I can no longer go in the nature to draw, this is why I draw portraits now.
Harald Naegeli drawings’ exhibition at the Musée Visionnaire. Top right image: Harald Naegeli, Flamingos (1987).
Bottom left: Harald Naegeli intimate sketchbooks. Bottom right: Installation view. Copyright: 2020 Pro Litteris, Zürich
HN: When I draw, I take something with me, and when I see it, I save it in my unconsciousness. The hand movement is a soulful process in comparison when one just observes. For me they are a way to hold a memory. I have almost no visual memory - in Dusseldorf there is a beautiful work by Mondrian, which I have visited a thousand times. It is a very simple composition; vertical lines and two or three colours - but, I cannot tell if the blue is painted on the left or right side of the painting.
Left side: Piet Mondrian, “Komposition mit Blau und Weiss”, 1936. Art Collection of Nordrhein-Westfale, image by Achim Kukulies
In 1986, a chemical accident at Sandoz in Basel (Switzerland) triggered mass death downstream; the entire eel population perished along a 400 km stretch. Harald Naegeli sprayed the "Totentanz der Fische" (En: "Dance of the Fish") from Dusseldorf to Koblenz, and crossed the distance of 80 km solely depending on his bicycle.
“All graffitis are part of militant art,
they are a disruption
against the social order requirements.”
Harald Naegeli, “Totentanz der Fische” (1987), from Dusseldorf to Koblenz, image by Johannes Stahl
HN: When I started doing graffiti, I did not start with figurative works, but with slogans. In my first work I wrote: “2 + 2 = 5” (on a building that belongs to the city’s university). When one writes this in a diary it would not provoke any thoughts, but when it is written in a public and political space it functions as a provocation. One can say simply that this is rooted in Dadaism and functions as a militant action.
Harald Naegeli, image by Felix Thürlemann (1979)
"Those who understand and don't act, have not understood."
HN: I encountered this quote (above) in the movement of 1968, and I realised that I also belonged to the masses that didn’t understand, because I didn’t take action. The secret power of politics is that with their words they can make changes. However, the simple citizen is not able to make changes only with words. Same with the writers, they can make imaginary worlds through a passive action, which unfortunately doesn't have any direct effect on our reality.
Harald Naegeli, Dusseldorf, (2016), image by Kürschner
D: The allocation of your various graffiti works is always very carefully situated in the context of the plasticity of the city. What is your thought on the current repetitive tagging in the city?
HN: The tagging is a mass movement which has become more and more commercial. Sprayers that create commissioned works for the city on big spaces can no longer create a dialogue with the city, rather only create a dialogue with the current market.
Banksy, Flower Thrower, 2003. Image: ZaBanker
HN: Banksy is a political artist, with his most famous work (“Flower Thrower”) being a rebellious act. The work is contextualised as a militant and political piece, but aesthetically it is conventional. There is no “handwriting” of the artist, one can say almost like a print. It is an incredibly popular work, because one grasps the message of the work immediately - instead of throwing a grenade the activist throws a flower bouquet, and wins on emotional sympathy, as in principle all people are against violence.
“When violence is met with violence then this is a primitive action, but when violence is fought with poetry, it creates a strong and memorable impression.”
Harald Naegeli, Flamingo-Graffiti in Dusseldorf, limited edition for the 50th Year Anniversary Greenpeace
D: Following your return to Zurich (from Dusseldorf) you received the 2020 Zurich City award, has anything (the city’s approach) changed in Zurich?
HN: Not much has changed since then. Perhaps for some artists this gesture (the award) is a confirmation of their work, but for me it has been very distant. It flatters me a little, but if it was 20 years ago I would have certainly not accepted it. It is a domestication act of the artist. I accepted the award only because I could donate the money. I gave away the CHF 50’000 to four institutions: Greenpeace, Vogelwarte, Vier Pfoten, and Pro Natura.
- So, isch jetzt fertig? -
